Building Wealth From The Inside Out With Dr. Michael Thomas | Ep. 222

Intro/Outro: You know what it is. That's right. It's time to talk money with your money nerd and financial coach. Now tighten those purse strings and open those ears. It's the Money Talk with Tiff podcast.

Tiffany Grant: Hey everyone, I am so excited cuz I have Dr. Michael Thomas on the line Now we were just nerding out for like. 30 minutes before I even hit record because what he studies is just so interesting to me. And he just came out with a book, um, about some of those topics. And so I wanted to have him on the show because I said, Ooh, we really need to talk about this.

So, hey, Dr. Michael, how are you?

Yes, for sure. Thank you for coming because what we're talking about today, y'all, um, He has a book out right now and it's called Black Financial Culture Building Wealth From the Inside Out. And when I say, as I was skimming through this book, I said, Ooh, he is preaching and he is on one today. So without further ado, let's just go ahead and jump right in.

I wanna start with chapter one. We gonna start from the very beginning and what caught my eye was cuz he has quotes at the beginning of each chapter. And in chapter one it says, money without wisdom is a liability. Can we just pause and just soak that in for a minute? Money without wisdom is a liability.

So, Dr. Thomas, what did you mean when you made, you put that quote in the book?

Dr. Michael Thomas: My, the, the company that I run, uh, which I provide financial coaching services, things of that nature, it's called. Solutions. Um, and it stands from Money and Wisdom. So it's the combination of, of both words, and it comes from Ecclesiastes seven 11 and 12, which is my favorite Bible verse on money in the the word of God.

And that is, Money and wisdom can get you almost anything in life, but wisdom is the only thing that can save your life. And so that's always resonated with me for a very long time. And I feel as if we're navigating a culture where many of us tend to believe that if I just have enough money, everything's gonna be okay.

And unfortunately, For anybody who doesn't get a chance to see what we see Tiffany, in the work that we do every day, and to have real intimacy with our clients and our lives, um, we know that that's not the case. And so what I'm getting at here is I'm, I'm wanting people to step back a little bit and to.

Maybe place a little less emphasis on the money side of the equation and take whatever you took from the money side and then add that to the wisdom side to start to actually move in a space of discernment and what's really gonna bring you value and joy and contentment. Because money in and of itself is not enough, right?

And I say this all the time. You secured the bag. But are you whole though, right? And so you find so many people in that space where they secure the bag and they still feel empty. They secure the bag, they're still having. Issues within their relationships and family, right? You secure the bag, you felt like you would feel better.

You felt like you would've arrived. You felt like all these things would've come, right? And then they don't. And then what happens is that we double down and we do more, and then we feel like we're gonna have this. This, this level of ecstasy and this, this, this becoming moment. And that's really not the case at all for most people who kind of climbed the mountaintop, uh, and realize that there's only more mountains, um, that are left to be climbed, right?

So that's really the, the, the notion behind that is how much emphasis are you putting in money and can money really solve the core of your concerns and issues and problems, which in many instances, Internal, uh, just as much as some of the factors that may be external, but we have to be able to address both.

Tiffany Grant: I am so glad that you said that because just thinking back in like my clients and people that I've helped, I've seen people make a ton of money and I'm talking about a bag. Bag. Yes. A bag bag. And I'm like, Ooh, I wish I was making that much type money. And they still ended up. Not having anything, um, at the end of the day.

And so, you know, and, and then I've also seen the flip side of that, where it's been people that didn't make a lot of money, but they had more. And it kind of goes back to everything that you just said. You know, we ki you know, if you prioritize making money, it doesn't mean that you have your financial habits and stuff under control too.

Um, and it can actually cause more issue. Um, once you do get into that, cuz I've also seen clients where they made a ton, so then they took on a ton of debt as well. Yes. And then a job fell through or something happened and then boom, you know, they're back to square one. So all of what you just said is so true and I'm so glad that you brought it up just now and even in the book because I feel like more people need to understand that and make in that chapter one.

Dr. Michael Thomas: Um, and if I just kind of speak on that just really quickly, It's, it's this whole notion of, I'm, I'm not saying that money isn't important because we navigate a capitalistic system. Um, And money is the, the, it's this carrot and stick type dynamic in the way that we navigate space in the world. So within the system that we navigate, right, money is the currency in which things move.

So it makes perfect sense. So there is significance and importance. However, if you're dealing with psychological and emotional deficits and you haven't realized that you're utilizing money to self, No amount of money can fill that void. And this is a level of wisdom that I want people to have early on as opposed to figuring it out when they turn 40 and 45 or even 50, and then thinking about how much time they wasted.

By not actually being present in moment and doing so many extraordinary things that don't cost a dime, that facilitate connection and joy and happiness, um, and chasing after that, the bag constantly. And there's nothing wrong with that. If that's a goal of yours, like go for it. Have fun, enjoy it, because some people are driven that way and it does make them feel alive.

But what I found for the vast majority of people, money isn't the main thing. It's the conduit to what they. Is gonna be the main thing. And um, so it's very important to sit back and unpack what that main thing is for you and why is it the thing that you need to connect to. Right? And is that really authentically what you want?

Are you desire, is it societal constructs? Is it money scripts? Is it family dynamics? It can be, it can be a whole host of things. But what I'm getting at is that. This process of fulfillment with money and joy and content and a life and abundant wealth has to happen from the inside before you can sustainably manifest it on the outside.

And that's

Tiffany Grant: all I'm saying there. Yes. And you actually just teed up my next point very perfectly. Just perfectly. Um, so. What I wanted to get at next was actually going into chapter two, and the quote that you put there is, I saved because I remember my family's financial struggles during my childhood, and when I read that, I said, Ooh, he is real loud right now because I talk about that on the podcast all the time, like I became a super saver.

Because I saw what happens when you're a super spender, and so I am scared of being a super spender. And so I went to the complete opposite end of the spectrum just so I don't fall into that same bucket. So let's just stay here kind of and, and just talk about that a little bit. Uh,

Dr. Michael Thomas: one of the things that we don't do a good job in culture generally is unpacking the spectrum.

Of saving spending habits and behaviors and the why behind those. So, for instance, very similar to your point to somebody sees you and say, oh, you're doing a, you're doing an amazing job saving. I wish I could be like you. But in the back of your mind, you're saying, I wish I could spend more. Right? Because if, if we're similar in that regard, me saving was born out of fear, not out of joy.

It was the fear of the lights being cut off. It was the fear of. Not having heat and having to sleep next to the stove to get warmth. It's the fear of taking a shower and you're having cold water and you have to boil water to take a bath. It's the fear of staying with another household and not feeling as if you can make a sound.

Because you don't want them to get mad at you. And if they get mad at you, you all may have to leave and go live with somebody else. And now that's even uncomfortable, right? So for me, are my experiences growing up and the way that I internalized them, Calls for me to have this deep fear, and so my savings behavior and patterns, even though I s I, I'm, I, that's, that's my jam.

Uh, initially I had to unpack my why and because I hadn't unpacked my why, it was easy for me to justify that, oh yeah, I'm not gonna go on that trip, or, no, I'm not gonna go on that friend's trip, or, no, I'm not gonna do the same, the, and engage in meaningful connection with other people. And say that, oh, I'm doing it because I wanna save and retire early.

That wasn't the case at all. It was because I had this deep fear that I had not unpacked, and my inner child and the boundedness of my inner child was actually manifesting itself in my present. And I literally had to take some time to go back and to think about how I was bounded then and to unwind that boundedness by speaking to the truth in reality of my.

Right. When you're a child, you don't have agency really. Right? You're at the whim of your parents and other circumstances, and when I go through this Unbounding process and I do this with myself and with clients, then we have to ask, am I still bounded in my level of agency as I was then, The, the, the answer is no.

Right? I have choice now, resource-wise, I was bounded with resources then, then I have to ask myself question now, am I, am I bounded in the same way resource-wise? No. Uh, am I bounded in terms of knowledge and information? No. Right? So I can actually now start to create this separation between that inner child and who I am today, and understand that those emotion.

That I felt came from a very real place, but I also have the, the opportunity. To actually choose differently and to experience life differently and to allow myself and afford myself to have those experiences. Uh, and so that's kind of been my process. That's why I lead, uh, kind of with that, uh, with that story, that paradigm, because.

I don't want people to believe that, oh, well, he's just saving because of this or that or the other. I want you to know that I'm very human too, just like anyone else is, and I struggle with the same things like a lot of people do. Um, and so in unpacking my journey, my perceptions about, uh, culture as I saw it growing up and how it impacted me, hopefully it allows for people through my experience to engage in their own journey with some grace and some compassion, and also to walk through a process of unbounding themselves to something from the past that they're no longer bounded.

Tiffany Grant: Yes, I had to do that work myself. So everything that you're saying right now, I'm just like, omg. No, it's real. Uh, because I was the type of person where I didn't do anything. Like, I'm just like, oh, like I tell the story all the time. Even something as simple as buying some shoes that I really, really needed, I'm like, oh, I don't wanna do that cuz I wanna make sure I pay off my debt.

You know, that type of thing. And so just tapping into why. Felt that way, um, was very eye-opening for me. And then also just having candid conversations with my mom, for instance. And she was saying that, you know, how she grew up was seeing my, her aunt, which is my great-aunt, use her credit cards and stuff.

And so she grew up looking at that like, Ooh, I wanna be like her when I grow up. And, and so that's how she got into the habit of using credit cards and stuff. And so, you know, just having these conversations with our loved ones and especially those who influence us, so that way we can kind of see where they're coming from, um, because it's usually an influence for them

Dr. Michael Thomas: too.

I think that Tiffany, I think that this is a huge point to emphasize. Where we're missing something incredibly vital and instrumental in the work of financial socialization as it relates to financial literacy, is that, and I say this all the time, how often do we as parents stop after having provided some financial information or have modeled something that we're not even realizing, that we're modeling and ask our children?

What do you think about that? Like when you see me? How do you think I manage money? Right? Or when? When you heard me say that or this thing, how does it make you feel? How does it make you think about money? How might you want to do X, Y, and Z with money? Right? And what's so incredibly powerful there is that now we're moving from speaking at children to now speaking two children because everything that you said, everything that your mother said, right?

Everything. That I said, um, there was an internalization of information and that seed sits there and it grows and there's no opportunity to root it out because nobody ever checks to see, well, how did you receive that? And I think that that's such a, such an I powerful, that's such a powerful paradigm.

That I would love to see more done in our space as it relates to financial socialization. Not just telling someone what to do or what to think or what to know information wise, but then also engaging in a relational side of this in terms of how does it make you feel? What might you want to do? Why do you believe.

Why do you think that way? So that we can potentially root out things that may not be what we intended to model, what we intended to say, um, and to reframe and to readdress things sooner than later so that we don't get to like 27, 28 and 30 and have taken on all this debt, done all these things because of the way that we internalized something when we were seven, eight.

Tiffany Grant: Mm. Yes. That is a word. That is a word. Um, and you know, I, I just think back to all the things like even as a parent, right? So, you know, telling my kids, which don't get me wrong, I believe that you should be transparent, but, you know, sometimes I'm like, yeah, I don't have it. I don't have that. I don't have.

You know, that's, that's mainly what they hear. Even though honestly, I might have it, but it's not something that I wanna spend my money on, but I'm not checking in with them to see, okay, how did you perceive that? How did you, how do you feel about that? Or how do you f. Think that mommy's making things happen, like, you know, that type of thing.

So I think that is some gold information, just checking in with your kids to see instead of just preaching at them. Um, you know, cuz I, I, I tell people, I actually, I think I just. Tweeted this, uh, a few days ago, and I was like, I'm officially a parent. I said, do you have McDonald's money? Money don't grow on trees, right?

Money don't grow on trees. Do you have McDonald's money? It's like all of these, um, sayings that we heard as a child and then we just kind of repeat.

Dr. Michael Thomas: Um, I haven't heard that one in a while, Tiffany, but you have. But that, but like, that's, that's like when we were growing up, when you weren't going to McDonald's, all the.

Uh, generally speaking, I know at least from, from my experience, like going to McDonald's was a treat. It wasn't like something that you're doing on a regular, so to speak. But anyway. Yeah,

Tiffany Grant: and I also say, but see my kids, my kids, though, they're real smart with it. They'd be like, yeah, I do. So go ahead and take it from my account that allow one that I've been saving.

Right. Touche, touche. And they will tell you like, oh, I have X, Y, Z in my account. That's agency. Yep. That's, I got the. Right. Um, but anyway, I, I, okay, so this kind of leads into my next point real quick. And in chapter four, I just wanna hit on real quick. You put abundance as a decision before it ever becomes a position.

And now when I'm in. And when I'm ingesting that quote after what I just said. Right. Uh, because the kids, they're like, oh, I'm abundant. Like I have the money. You know, it, they made the decision that they have the money. And so, um, so now they're, I just wanna hit on that to express their agency. Exactly.

Dr. Michael Thomas: Right. And so I, I think a lot about agriculture. Okay. Um, because a, a farmer, when they sow a seed, Has to do so out of the, out of theism and the expectance of, of abundance, right? Because no one just randomly so seed without considering and thinking that, oh, I'm gonna benefit from this at at some point.

But this is the thing, if you don't have an abundant spirit, you never sell the seat. And that's the power of that. And then what happens is that we perpetuate our circumstances and situation and then unfortunately, what happens? I, I tend to believe that time is the most valuable asset that we have. We start to lose time because to have the abundance that many people hope for sustainably and long term, it, it takes having to till the ground even before you plant the seed.

Right. So you gotta turn up the soil. Once you've turned up the soil and aerate it, then you plant the seed. Then now we have to understand something about the seed. Is it a, is it a quick blooming seed? Is it one that takes five years or seven years to bloom? And then once it does bloom, then it's, I'm gonna have a orchard of sunset fruit for 20 or 30 odd years, right?

Uh, so what happens a lot of times is that there's so much uncertainty in the process. Uh, of what abundance looks like in abundance living. But what happens is that when we, when we're rooted in scarcity, instead of sewing seeds, we're just clamoring to what we have, uh, instead of being expected about something in the future.

And so the biggest thing was is that if you wanna have abundance, um, you have to, you have to be it before you. Really, that's the, that's the, the whole idea there was, uh, Winston Marcells, who was one of my favorite jazz musicians. Uh, there was a kid who says like, I wanna, I wanna be just like you. And so he says, well be just like me.

And he was like, well, like I can't be like you. Like, just like right now. He's like, yes, you can, because being me is the process of. What you see is the, the end of a process of me. But if you be me every day and he, he laid out, this is what I do. 30 minutes, I work on X, Y, and Z, and I do it every day. And if you be that consistently, you will become it right.

However you, you're operating in scarcity, you'll never be the thing that you're hoping to become. And so if you want the. You have to start being that position today, even though you don't see it manifested in the money or the title, or the possessions or the feelings just yet. But the process of being the thing means that in due time you will be rewarded and you will become the very thing that you've always desired.

So if it's abundance that you want, start living abundantly. Live abundantly in your mindset, live abundantly in your level of generosity. Live abundantly in just the things that you can control, because abundance begets abundance, right? And it, it's such a beautiful paradigm and it exponentials in value no different than an investment, right?

And, uh, so that's kind of the whole notion or idea. But if you don't live abundant, Then you'll never have the abundance that you hope for. It's just, it's just the way that it works. Uh, and I tend to believe that to be a principle in nature from an agricultural mindset and standpoint. But I think that that is a very true thing as it relates to the way that we navigate our financial lives as well.

Tiffany Grant: I have been working on, you know, the self-talk and things like that. And so I've been trying to get away from, you know, saying, oh, I'm broke, or, yep, I don't have it right now.

Dr. Michael Thomas: Language matters.

Tiffany Grant: Yes, it's powerful. Yes, it does. So now I try to say it's on its way. It's, it's just on its way. So all of this has been so insightful.

Like, I mean from the chapter one conversation that led, led into chapter two, which led into chapter four. I know I skipped one, but we kind of hit on it still. I'm not gonna give it away. Y'all just need to get the book. Um, and so it's just been very, very insightful and. So grateful that we were able to have these conversations cuz we need to have more conversations like this, like getting into the weeds of why we feel the way that we do as it relates to our money.

So I just wanna say thank you so much Dr. Thomas for coming on and talking about this. And again, y'all, the book is called Black Financial. Culture, building wealth from the inside out. And actually, I think I'm gonna do some giveaways on this book because I feel like this could be so transformative for so many people.

So if you aren't, you know, uh, signed up for the newsletter or following my me on social, please do so asap, uh, because I'm gonna do a few giveaways for this book. I think it's. Transformative even in this conversation. And we only did, uh, hit like scratch the surface of chapters one, two, and four. So

Dr. Michael Thomas: I wrote this book to be read in community and not in isolation.

Uh, the, the, the whole point of this is to engage in these narratives around money that are rooted in my experie. Um, so that it doesn't seem emotionally charged for the individual as they engage with it. Um, but the, the goal is, is for people to actually read it together and to, to go on, uh, their own journey, but also within the care, uh, and the grace and the love and the warmth of someone else.

And if, if, if this book does that, I've won. Right? I don't, I don't necessarily care if I sell like a million copies of whatever it may be, but if I could get families and friends and neighbors and, and communities to, to engage in empathy and compassion as it relates to their financial wellness journeys, uh, then I am perfectly okay if that.

The one thing that I do in my life that people remember me for. Um, so yeah. I'll stop there.

Tiffany Grant: Yeah. So what you're saying is I need to go ahead and set up this book, book study, huh?

Dr. Michael Thomas: Yes. You need to, you need

Tiffany Grant: to. So, Dr. Thomas, thank you so much for coming on. Um, if people were interested in just learning more about you, learning more about your services, learning more about the book mm-hmm.

Where could they find

Dr. Michael Thomas: you? Yeah, yeah. So first you can go to black financial culture.com and then you can find everything about the book and a lot of great information about me. Uh, I'm also on Instagram primarily, uh, and that's at Modem, M O D O M, and that stands for Money and Wisdom Modem Solutions. Uh, so you can add Modem Solutions and find me on Instagram, and, uh, I'd love to connect.

Tiffany Grant: Yes. Thank you so much, and I'll have all of that information in the show notes. So if you're doing something else, you couldn't write it down, don't worry. Just check out the show notes and I'll have all those links there. So again, again, again, thank you so much. This has become my new favorite episode. Oh.

So I appreciate you and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening, joining and being a part of the Money Talkative podcast this week. You can check Tip Out every Thursday for a New Money Talk podcast, but if you just can't wait until next week, you can listen to previous podcast episodes at Money Talk with t.com or follow tiff on all social media platforms at Money Talk with T.

Until next time, spend wise by spending less. A word to the money-wise is always sufficient.